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Post by Time Lord on May 26, 2008 16:45:17 GMT -5
OK, I would like to move the discussion that began in the Hello thread to the general area. What features would you deem to be essential if some one were to develop a new combo organ product? Not a dream, fantasy, wish-list of whistles and bells. I mean real, actual features that might be produceable in the real world so that musicians like us might be able to afford to buy one.
I am also referring to a transistor combo organ sound. The Tonewheel emulators are thick on the ground.
Your thoughts?
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Post by gibsonkal on May 26, 2008 18:20:12 GMT -5
I really wonder if a real transistor organ can be made today. I really don't think it would be cheap- but I would at least like to see one made...and I've considered making one (with help obviously from an electrical engineer friend). I see guys building '59 Fender Bassmans, and old arcane tube amps -pricey ones at that. I can see a new combo organ made by a boutique builder, more than a mass produced digital thing made by one of the major manufacturers. (If it's digital-it's NOT a combo-sorry) If it was really good, (captures the REAL combo experience) there would be a market -albeit a small one. I'd say it's more a labor of love than a money making venture at that point. Like an old classic car or bike- there are guys making great retro (you name it) stuff out there-why not a combo?
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Post by plateauphase on May 26, 2008 18:29:58 GMT -5
Realistically, it would have to be a digital, ROMpler-type instrument like the Nord C1. There's no way any of the major keyboard vendors would be able, or inclined, to bring an analog transistor-based product to market cost effectively. And I doubt a boutique company would be able to produce one within a realistic budget.
So with that in mind...
- A basic soundset, based on Farfisa and Vox Connie sounds, with multiple footages controllable with drawbars or tabs. - Expansion options, either with a card or download. - 61-key waterfall keyboard. (One manual... don't give me no stinkin' two manual organ.) - Switchable bass section on the keyboard [with or without a user-selectable split point]. - Stereo out. - A wicked vibrato switchable from a hardware switch on the front panel. - Basic onboard effects: reverb, chorus, delay. - Basic amp modeling for output direct to PA. - User patch memory with direct-access buttons on the front panel. - MIDI. - Enough real estate on the top to accommodate a stacked keyboard. - Street price less than $1000.
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Post by plateauphase on May 26, 2008 18:34:40 GMT -5
Like an old classic car or bike- there are guys making great retro (you name it) stuff out there-why not a combo? Because a steel Rivendell or Mariposa with a Brooks saddle is great to look at and ideal in theory, but if I'm riding a century, I want my 21st century Litespeed and high-tech Selle Italia saddle under my a**. Same goes for organs. I don't want a $5,000 all-transistor, neo-retro organ because I'd never spend that much, and I wouldn't find it practical. Give me the sound and the looks and make it all digital, thank you. I don't believe in authenticity.
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Post by Time Lord on May 26, 2008 18:53:06 GMT -5
I think the stipulation of an under $1,000.00 price tag automatically makes a digital emulation the only way it could be done.
Most of the old organs only had 49 keys. How necessary is the extra octave? Ditto on the switchable bass? How much will that really get used?
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Post by gibsonkal on May 26, 2008 20:58:17 GMT -5
I get it.
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Post by plateauphase on May 28, 2008 16:15:28 GMT -5
61 keys because I thinmk the short keyboard is one of the main shortcomings of the original/vintage combos. I'd like it to have an octave switch, too, to extend it in either direction. Hell, yeah, I'd use those octaves. And the switchable bass, though not essential, would be desirable. It'd be nice to be able to self-contained like Manzarek.
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blair
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Post by blair on Jun 2, 2008 19:27:46 GMT -5
61 keys because I thinmk the short keyboard is one of the main shortcomings of the original/vintage combos. I'd like it to have an octave switch, too, to extend it in either direction. Hell, yeah, I'd use those octaves. And the switchable bass, though not essential, would be desirable. It'd be nice to be able to self-contained like Manzarek. Same here...I've done the key-bass-on-top-of-the-combo thing. But I *would* suggest a separate output jack for the bass output.
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Post by karl on Jun 4, 2008 23:35:30 GMT -5
I always look for a transpose switch up/down in the controls. This is handy for live situations and indispensable for midi control in the studio. Hey, how about a switch that flips the bass to the right hand for more finesse in the bass line, and flips the organ to the left hand for chording. I have set this up on my keys many times and things tend to sound a little more lively
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Post by toomanyorgans on Jun 5, 2008 9:32:44 GMT -5
Give me drawbars, orange-and-black, and a chrome stand.
Um, did I just say, "VOX"?
I think the looks will make a lot of difference in the marketplace, once the guts are thrashed out (and the discussion so far has been in the right direction)
I'm a practicing industrial designer (I also teach design fabrication in a major university), and I find the Combo Compact and its derivatives to have unattractive proportions (and even at the age of 16, when I saw my first one, that was my impression!).
The classic VOX cabinet, with "Z" stand, must be THE archetype combo organ. An unbelievably gorgeous design home run. I saw the "new combo" prototype at the VOX stand at NAMM last January, and the proportions left me cold...it was far too narrow front-to-back. The depth should be the same as an old VOX in order to maintain proportions. The one at NAMM was cobbled onto a full-sized NCM "Z" stand, and looked strange from any view except the front, dead-on. I say, keep the depth, even if it's only a space to store cords and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
Color, proportions and that flash of chrome to anchor it to the floor. Oh, and did I say, "drawbars"?
I did? Good.
--Senhor California
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blair
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Post by blair on Jun 5, 2008 20:43:47 GMT -5
I always look for a transpose switch up/down in the controls. This is handy for live situations and indispensable for midi control in the studio. Hey, how about a switch that flips the bass to the right hand for more finesse in the bass line, and flips the organ to the left hand for chording. I have set this up on my keys many times and things tend to sound a little more lively d**n! Nice thought!!!
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blair
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Post by blair on Jun 5, 2008 20:46:48 GMT -5
The classic VOX cabinet, with "Z" stand, must be THE archetype combo organ. An unbelievably gorgeous design home run. I saw the "new combo" prototype at the VOX stand at NAMM last January, and the proportions left me cold...it was far too narrow front-to-back. The depth should be the same as an old VOX in order to maintain proportions. The one at NAMM was cobbled onto a full-sized NCM "Z" stand, and looked strange from any view except the front, dead-on. I say, keep the depth, even if it's only a space to store cords and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I would hope that if they really did produce a new Vox, they'd either design a Z-stand that actually fit the keyboard or they'd make the keyboard bigger. I'd prefer the latter, as I like to sit something on top and a nice big top like the one on the Continental is perfect for that. Senhor - What's your take on the way the Yamaha YC-20 looks (esp. in red), sitting on its stand?
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Post by Time Lord on Jun 6, 2008 8:03:57 GMT -5
I saw the "new combo" prototype at the VOX stand at NAMM last January, and the proportions left me cold...it was far too narrow front-to-back. The depth should be the same as an old VOX in order to maintain proportions. The one at NAMM was cobbled onto a full-sized NCM "Z" stand, and looked strange from any view except the front, dead-on. I say, keep the depth, even if it's only a space to store cords and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. --Senhor California So you would pay extra money for a keyboard that had the space to stack another keyboard? I ask because doesn't adding that extra platform area raise the per unit cost? It seems to me that one of the big considerations here is the price point. If someone is going to try and bring a new product to market they need to keep the price where people can afford it. Especially when you look at how new and inventive products are often ground into little pieces for being too different. Also, this chrome stand? Can you adjust the height on those things? My wife always has to adjust her stand depending on how tall her heels are. Devil's advocate question: Would you prefer the thing to have the look over getting the sound right? If a product had a great 60's sound and was in a plain (affordable) vanilla wrapper would that be a deal killer?
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blair
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Post by blair on Jun 6, 2008 19:19:46 GMT -5
I saw the "new combo" prototype at the VOX stand at NAMM last January, and the proportions left me cold...it was far too narrow front-to-back. The depth should be the same as an old VOX in order to maintain proportions. The one at NAMM was cobbled onto a full-sized NCM "Z" stand, and looked strange from any view except the front, dead-on. I say, keep the depth, even if it's only a space to store cords and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. --Senhor California So you would pay extra money for a keyboard that had the space to stack another keyboard? I ask because doesn't adding that extra platform area raise the per unit cost? It seems to me that one of the big considerations here is the price point. If someone is going to try and bring a new product to market they need to keep the price where people can afford it. Especially when you look at how new and inventive products are often ground into little pieces for being too different. Also, this chrome stand? Can you adjust the height on those things? My wife always has to adjust her stand depending on how tall her heels are. Devil's advocate question: Would you prefer the thing to have the look over getting the sound right? If a product had a great 60's sound and was in a plain (affordable) vanilla wrapper would that be a deal killer? For me, sound is more important than looks, but...I already have tons of combos. I *have* the sound. The only thing I don't really have is a warranty and the ability to do some more modern tricks. If I'm going to spend the money on something with customer support, I've gotta get sound *and* style. ('Cuz I love the way my Yamaha YC-20 looks. If I'm gonna give that up, I've gotta get a replacement for the style, as well as the sound.) As to the space consideration...I think of that as more room under the hood to handle more stuff. If I'm going to be playing multiple keyboards, I refuse to use those ugly-ass tiered keyboard stands. I'd rather put one board on top. (This is something I pretty much cannot do w/the YC-20, except for some very thin boards or key basses like the Hohner Bass 3.) For me, the extra space isn't a deal-breaker, but if you're making a Continental, the only way it truly looks like a Continental is by having those dimensions. If that's not gonna be the way it is, then don't call it a Continental. As to the height issue: The Z-stands were *not* adjustable. On the other hand, a new combo doesn't have to be a Continental. Yamaha solved the height issue by setting up a tilt mechanism for some of their stands. (See the YC-30/YC-45D stand.) I believe it would be *possible* to make an adjustable Z-stand of sorts. It wouldn't be the "true" Z-stand, but would instead need some sort of platform attached to the bottom. (It wouldn't even need to be the full size of the keyboard, but rather go around the two sides and the back. Kind of shaped like a square bracket - [ - with the long side being the side of the keyboard that faced the audience. The main Z-stand would be braced inside that and that platform would be adjustable somehow. On the other hand, that might just look dumb to some people. Of course, if I'm the manufacturer, I sell that as an extra.
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Franz
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Post by Franz on Sept 25, 2008 0:26:56 GMT -5
Firstly, I do think it is possible for a boutique shop to make a run of say, one thousand units of an actual analog organ. Dave Smith Instruments produced an all analog synth for 2k price with a TON of knobs (forty eight, I think), that not only created a great sound, but improved upon the original options available (and made it smaller, and lighter).
Second, wouldn't pre-orders encourage such an action? I would put down money right now if I knew I'd get a new combo in a year. I bet just about everybody here would. Couldn't one thousand pre-orders be placed, world-wide?
Feature wise
• Analog signal path.
• Five octaves, with fixed bass bottom octave, switchable second bass octave. Treble side with octave transpose.
• Flat top, definitely.
• I don't mind tabs or buttons. If a digital LED keeps it cheeper, I don't mind.
• I'd prefer no readouts, nor memory slots. If this is necessary for marketability, then memory should be limited to about a dozen spots.
• volume knob on LEFT side.
• a simple envelope (ADSR) for automatic fade ins.
• Knee lever tone booster
• a pitch bend control, i.e. a slalom ribbon.
• Exterior availabe in Red/Black, Blue/Black, Green/Black.
• Vox-like inverted treble keys; grey naturals & black sharps for the bass keys.
• A new name...NOT the Vox Continental II, or Korg Kontinental. Something snappy, like, THE VOX PHANTASM!!
That's my fantasy. Alright, who's a rich venture capitalist? takers?
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